What Size Toilet Flange Do I Need

• #1

Hi All,

I'm having trouble determing whether I need a 3" or a 4" closet bend and flange for this toilet. The depression wall mountain tank is marked KOHLER Usa and both the tank and lid take Kohler function numbers marked Thousand-6802. They were cast in early 1930. The bowl, which I assume was original forth with the tank is marked 13/C (thirteen with a C below it) and was cast in late 1929. Most vintage toilets that I have seen online from this era are specified to have a 4" flange and closet curve. Some are even noted that a 4" x 3" closet bend will not work. I snapped an photo of the horn and information technology looks pretty small. What size should I use? (I have to cross a flooring joist which makes 4" tough in a 2x10--steel would be involved--otherwise I'd just apply a 4" drain and telephone call it a twenty-four hour period).

I'thou also not sure of the rough in. When I re-installed the original flush ell, I measured xiv-5/8" from the back of the tank to the centerline of the horn. Can I just shorten it up by iii/4" or so and install it on a 14" rough in? I hate to plumb upwardly a non-standard crude-in and have problems in the future if the toilet is changed.

Thanks,
Jason

Final edited past a moderator: Feb half dozen, 2017

• #3

Dump the toilet and install your plumbing for a 12" rough-in. Every shop in the country carries toilets for a 12" crude, and only a few deport anything else, and and so you will pay plenty extra for information technology.

Terry

The Plumbing Sorcerer

• #4

Yous tin can apply a standard 4x3 closet flange and 3" pipe for that.

Of course 4" is an option too. So, pretty much any yous feel like working with.
Most new toilets accept about a 2" trapway, much like the bowl y'all have now. Though we also pull out some that await to be one.5"
Caroma is the but i I know of that has both a three" trapway, the 305 bowl and 1 with four" at the outlet, the 270 bowl.

• #5

Thanks for the replies!

The fact that your flange measures an extra 5/8" simply means the toilet will sit 5/8" further out into the room and have that much extra space behind the tank. Toilet come in standard rough-in sizes of ten", 12", and 14". Only a few models choices are available in ten" and 14" because 12" is the basic standard rough-in.

If I install it on a 14" rough, the tank is going to be sitting in the wall, not away from it, by 5/8". Seems more like it would exist a 15" rough. If I can shorten upwardly the flush ell (wall mount tank), I might endeavor to get information technology into a 14". I empathize that fourteen" is uncommon but fifteen" is nigh impossible. I don't want to completely screw the next person who comes along, if I can aid it.

My question to you is why in God'south name are you installing an 85 year one-time toilet. This is about likely a 7 gallon per flush monster with obsolete repair parts. I note past the number of posts you take made that you have been effectually this forum for a long fourth dimension and surely should know at that place are far better choices for toilets that are not expensive and will perform well on one.28 or ane.6 gpf. If yous were restoring a vintage machine, I might sympathise why yous needed vintage parts, but toilets are another matter. Peradventure I'yard missing something???

I live in an onetime house, Gary. We're putting in a new bath and we're using about all salvaged or period advisable parts where nosotros tin can. My sink is from 1928 if that makes you feel whatever meliorate (or worse). In this case authenticity trumps efficiency. This toilet will non encounter a huge amount of use. Our half bath, which gets the majority of the use, is a i.6gpf toilet and when the toilet in the other bathroom breaks it volition exist replaced by a Toto--I'm a big fan of Toto toilets.

Dump the toilet and install your plumbing for a 12" rough-in. Every store in the country carries toilets for a 12" rough, and only a few carry annihilation else, and then yous will pay plenty extra for it.

I understand where you're coming from. Actually there isn't too many parts on this sucker that are that uncommon. Douglas flush valve is common, fill valve is standard. The biggest thing is the flush ell and I remember that if the original one lasted lxxx years, the next one volition probable final most the same.

You can utilise a standard 4x3 closet flange and three" pipe for that.

Of form four" is an option too. So, pretty much whatever you lot feel like working with.
Most new toilets take about a ii" trapway, much like the bowl you accept now. Though we as well pull out some that wait to be 1.five"
Caroma is the only one I know of that has both a 3" trapway, the 305 bowl and one with 4" at the outlet, the 270 bowl.

Well, I feel like working with iii" but what I'm concerned almost is that so many toilets from this era are noited that they need to be 4". It would be a lot more piece of work to get four" here as I have to cantankerous a joist and I'll likely be using some steel in that example. Maybe it will aid to know why three" became and so popular...used to exist all four" right? Was 3" fifty-fifty an selection in 1930?

FYI, this is ane of the locations that prove virtually older toilets needing 4" ... http://deabath.com/Original/Or_Toilets/or_toilets.html

Thanks everyone!

Concluding edited: Dec x, 2012

• #half-dozen

I exchanged a couple of emails with John Five. from Bathroom Machineries (http://www.deabath.com) and asked about the three" vs 4" issue. He responded every bit follows:

Yes, the older bowls have to accept the 4" flange. If you use a 4x3 reducing flange, there usually isn't enough room for the wax ring. Go with the 4x3 cupboard ell.

I'yard going to go to blue box shop tonight and compare flanges...sounds like a three" flange is smaller than a iv" flange. I always idea a flange was a flange was a flange...apparently not.

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard

• #seven

I would take whatever flange yous desire to use, and push it onto the bottom of the bowl.
That will be your defining reply.

When I'm working with old Seattle homes from the 1920's, I employ a 4x3 spigot cupboard bend with 4" hub flange.
Mainly because I can make a tighter bend with information technology.

That'southward not saying that a 4x3 flange won't fit your basin though. It'southward pretty easy to pick up i and try information technology earlier any installing is done.

Hither's a pb bend replacement using 3" ABS

Last edited: Dec xi, 2012

jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer thirty

• #8

All toilet flanges are four" at their inlet...some cervix to a 3" pipe. There isn't a toilet made that requires a 4" piping. Now, there are some places that sell 3" INTERNAL toilet flanges (i.e., it goes Inside of a 3" pipage) and those should be outlawed - they can create big problems. The ID of the horn on yours is nearly ii-1/two"...so a 3" pipe is bigger and should piece of work just fine.

At that place are lots of new toilets that look retro, will allow like shooting fish in a barrel replacement should the side by side owner like information technology, and would fit on a standard 12" rough-in. While you lot have the take a chance, put in a new one at a standard rough-in.

BTW, most inspectors would not approve installation of that fauna...if it existed, you could repair it, simply you usually are NOT allowed to install one in a new or remodel situation - that would require one to run across electric current h2o utilise requirements.

Terminal edited: Dec 10, 2012

• #9

All toilet flanges are iv" at their inlet...some neck to a 3" pipage. There isn't a toilet made that requires a iv" pipe. Now, there are some places that sell 3" INTERNAL toilet flanges (i.eastward., information technology goes INSIDE of a 3" pipe) and those should be outlawed - they can create large problems. The ID of the horn on yours is about 2-1/2"...so a 3" pipage is bigger and should work just fine.

Ok. Well, that's adept to know. 3 inch piping it is. I can better get the required slope with a 3" pipage. I know that the internal three" flange is a bad thought...

In that location are lots of new toilets that look retro, will allow like shooting fish in a barrel replacement should the side by side owner like it, and would fit on a standard 12" rough-in. While you take the run a risk, put in a new one at a standard rough-in.

BTW, most inspectors would not corroborate installation of that animal...if information technology existed, you could repair information technology, but y'all usually are Not allowed to install one in a new or remodel situation - that would require i to see current water employ requirements.

I know, I know ... I'thou not listening *fingers in ears* lalalalaalala

I'thousand going to try to shorten upwards the ell so I can get information technology on a 14" crude-in. I don't want to totally screw myself/someone afterwards. Someday I'll come back and exist asking why I didn't heed to ya'll, only I'll cantankerous that span when I get there.

(And by the way, I retrieve that is rediculous....who does the regime think pays for that h2o? I pay for that h2o! If I want to pay to waste material it, I should be able to).

Thanks fellas!

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012

jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

• #10

Clean, drinkable water is non an space commodity - just ask those that alive in the US desert southwest, or those in many other countries. Even where I live, they pull a lot of water out of the river, status information technology, it gets used, cleaned up then dumped back in for the next boondocks/city downriver to do information technology all over again. There's a limit on how much you can pull out earlier the costs to clean it upwards to standards become out of hand and so forcing the utilize of more than efficient appliances helps everyone. There'south a large lodge price to excessive utilize non covered in the price of the supply. There are lots of older, water wasting toilets that don't flush also equally many of the new ones, too.

Using a non-standard rough-in doesn't make a standard 12" toilet unusable, it just leaves more than room behind it to the wall. Some don't have a problem with that, but in a small room, it can be a big cistron, and some merely can't stand the look. And, if you have a adept inspector, he might be kind when he writes upwardly the rejection sideslip, but past then, your chance to exercise information technology right merely toll you lots more than than doing it at present.

Terry

The Plumbing Magician

• #eleven

Make clean, potable water is not an space commodity - just ask those that live in the Usa desert southwest

And yet there are plans to sell trips to the moon for the right toll. Imagine how much pollution the regular folks have to put up with so rich people tin can twenty-four hour period trip to the moon. We EPA our cars and will soon require that they get 50 MPG, simply if y'all're rich, The skies the limit, well may there is no more limit for them.

In the Seattle expanse, we depend on the snowfall pack in the mountains. There take been years when water was rationed. They don't worry most your toilets, but they do have a program that offers rebates to supervene upon them.

During rationing, people were cutting neighbor'due south hoses if they saw them watering lawns.

Terminal edited: December 10, 2012

Terry

The Plumbing Sorcerer

• #12

Hither is a cupboard curve in an old Seattle habitation, using the 4x3 spigot closet bend and a 4" hub flange.

And this is the toilet that was installed afterwards.

TOTO CST423SF Promenade with round bowl.

Last edited: December eleven, 2012

jadnashua

Retired Defense force Industry Engineer thirty

• #14

FWIW, the outer rim of the toilet flange is the same, whether it is three or four" pipe, at least if you want it to fit on any Usa drain lines and toilets sold for this market! Agreed, though, that the Caroma tin can affluent bigger/longer material than about others, merely those sold in the USA will piece of work on either a 3 or 4" bleed piping (could be different than those sold elsewhere). While we get visitors from exterior NA, the vast bulk are from here, and the advice is geared more than towards that market.

What Size Toilet Flange Do I Need,

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